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Gaetan Peverel
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Posts: 22
(6/3/02 3:50:30 am)
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Re: Verbal Diarrhoea @ Some WoT Place
Okay, I could go on and on about how I am, at the moment, a professional writer, so I probably know what I'm talking about, but eh, screw it.
Nymeria, since you spend such a long time expounding at such great length (over and over and over again, redefining ad nauseum, and by the pure verbosity of your posts completely proving the point of the original complaint) on the literary justification of that desc.....
Here's the challenge. Find a book. An actual published book by a real author who's ever encountered an editor. Quote one passage that goes on, uninterrupted, with a description of a character (not a city, not a landscape, not a scene, but a single character) as lavish and lengthy as that one. You could start with Thomas Hardy -- he tended to get fairly wordy in his descriptions, especially when Eustacia Vye was concerned -- or go with one of the many sickeningly dull and more-or-less-identical paperback fantasy novelists. I don't care. Find one single uninterrupted passage of 481 words or more solely to describe one single character. Then quote it here.
If you can find a single book -- actually published by a real publisher -- with a single character description that lengthy and florid, and quote it here...well, bully for you. I'll still think that desc was utter crap with painfully awkward, high-school quality metaphors and the overall air of someone who is overly-enamored of seeing her own words in print, but I personally will shut up about it if you can find a single publisher who let a similar description make it to the printed page. If you can't -- and you won't, I'm sure -- then maybe you ought to take that fact to heart, and realize that maybe, just maybe, most of the people who actually know what they're doing and know what their readers are willing to suffer through don't let masturbatory, overindulgent crap like that out.
Hmm.
Gaetan Peverel
Lethe says "Yeah, but when I see the name Gaetan Peverel, I know it's a quality rant."
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CyberAnima
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Posts: 7
(6/3/02 12:04:02 pm)
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 HUGE descs
As an aside, when I see a huge desc, I skin the first few lines, the last few lines, and then decide if it's worth it.
I write for a living, but my writing is of the technical variety, which means that if anything, I tend on the side of lacking description. Mine tend to have a lot of fairly straightforward sentences, and the 10+ years in journalistic/technical writing mean that I wind up writing a lot of subject-verb-object.
I don't think this desc is nearly as heinous as some in terms of content or floridity, but it's huge. I can't bring myself to read huge descs from top to bottom. If it's more than a screen, or has paragraphs running more than 6 - 7 lines each, it makes me cringe as a general rule.
Paragraphs. Please. A wall o'text like that makes my eyes hurt, and breaking it into shorter chunks means folks might actually get all the way through it and absorb the relevant information.
Just because the multidescers on many MUSHes adhere to the three-paragraph format, it doesn't mean you're stuck with using it that way. Most of them will parse a %r just fine. If not, I can personally hand-write descer code that will. As I'm a relatively crappy coder, that should give you an idea of the level of challenge of this undertaking.
I don't claim to be the world's greatest descer. Only on rare occasions do I come up with those neat, perfectly-evocative turns of phrase. I am, however, a fairly straightforward descer, and it's rare that anyone reads one of my descs and has a doubt about the relative size, coloring, gender, etc., of the character therein.
People who write exceptionally florid descs should consider the following:
1) Does it scroll past a single screen's length on 25-line display?
2) Can I set any of this foo into +views?
3) Have I left adequate 'white space' between chunks of text to make it easy to dissolve?
4) Does this convey the information of what my character looks like?
Once you've done all that, feel free to toss in a soupcon of embellishment. Just remember that the florid prose is to the desc like accessories are to a woman's outfit -- a few, well-placed items will make the whole more stunning, while too many of them all at once make it look like a rummage sale in motion.
...oh, and leave out the heaving breasts and quivering thighs. It's adequate to say a woman is buxom, or built along gamine lines. Nobody cares what her exact cup size might be. When I see the breasts that seem to pose on their own, I run for the hills.
Edit: Whenever you say you're a professional writer in a post, inevitably you will make STUPID typos. It must be Karmic law. I fixed mine.
Edited by: CyberAnima at: 6/3/02 12:05:50 pm
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Nymeria
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Posts: 6
(6/3/02 5:50:17 pm)
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Re: HUGE descs
CyberAnima,
I certainly understand that some will think the desc is too large and not formatted to their liking, but as far as paragraphs go, I personally cringe when I see a desc of the same size (or either smaller or larger, really) that is split into 4, 5 or even 6 or 7 paragraphs. That, for me, breaks off too much from how I expect a desc to be and I really do find it harder to read. 2 or 3 is what I consider ideal, but that is certainly a matter of personal preference. I've come across games where the 4-7 paragraphs style appears rather common.
But no, I am not sticking to the 2-3 paragraph count just because I don't think there are other options or because I use a multi-descer; I've got my own descing code, and although I've generally set it up to work with just 2-3 paragraphs, its because I do consider that ideal.
Regarding the points you make, I don't personally consider 1) too important these days and 3) is something I don't like myself. I prefer to just indent between paragraphs rather than to use additional whitespace. For me, that reads better.
For 2), I do agree that views can be useful, but usually for providing detailed descriptions of things like jewellery, weapons, etc. When people put articles of clothing into separate views and skip these except for a one or two word mention in the actual desc, it starts to get frustrating. Not to mention it gets awkward to update every time you change clothing.
4) is certainly a good goal, but since I do think my descs obtain that goal, and others disagree, it is clearly a highly subjective point.
Gaetan Peverel,
There's a small problem with your post: it seems to assume I am writing a book. Which, of course, I am not, even if some seem to want to call the desc novel-length. I've certainly not suggested myself that it belongs in a book. Arguing that I do consider it well enough written _for its intended medium_ is not the same as arguing for its 'literary merits'. At least not in the sense you appear to mean, namely that it has anything to do with a book.
I would not expect, nor want to encounter a desc of this style or size in a book. Of course not. In a book the author can introduce details as time goes by. Except, how on earth do you do that in roleplay, if you want to give roughly the same basic image to everyone you roleplay with?
To accomplish this, you'd have to slip specific little details into your scenes _every time_ someone new is present (and you'd have to remember which details you had fed them previously, in some cases), and I suspect that means you'd only play with new people after a while, as the rest would be tired of you repeating yourself.
As a professional writer (although, professional MUSHer would have been a more relevant 'credential' to mention), I am sure you know that different media tends to require different styles. Saying that a desc like this would never show up in a published work of fiction is no more significant than saying you would never find a technical manual written on dactylic hexameter. In my opinion, the medium of MUSHing allows for a lot of different styles of writing; you may like some and dislike others, but it remains a matter of personal opinion. Whereas most everyone will agree that proper spelling, punctuation and capitalization makes for a more pleasant read, beyond that you enter into the great wide open of subjectivity.
Finally, I am not sure what about the original complaint that my posts prove (especially not if you are referring to the little commentary early on, considering the inaccuracy which plagued that rather inane little rant)? There is certainly no similarity (beyond the fact that it tends to go on for a while) between the writing in my posts and the writing in my desc; different media, after all.
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You Hurt My Brain 
Registered User
Posts: 66
(6/3/02 9:05:20 pm)
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Re: HUGE descs
Whiny TS PHB-esque verbosity. That's what the original complaint was about.
Too much, too dull, fails to give the reader a clear picture.
Barbie-boobs.
And shut the @#%$ up already. I hate your description, and if I were to run into something so nauseatingly (non-)descriptive in a game, my first impression would be "entirely too full of herself, must be in the spotlight always." Yawn.
If your poses are as hatefully (non-)descriptive as your @descs, then I'll more than likely not want to RP with you. Which you will then take some 500+ words to say "Well, I wouldn't want to RP with you either, based on that awful, untruthful thing you posted!" Because I'm obviously so blind, illiterate and unappreciative of your Oh So Beautiful Descriptions.
@#%$ you. With a 2-litre bottle.
And I still say Barbie-boobs.
- - -
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Nymeria
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Posts: 7
(6/4/02 6:14:58 am)
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Which brain?
Yawn.
How long will it take before you realise how amply you have shown yourself to be an utter idiot? I've already demonstrated once that you have a pretty sucky grasp of English, and now you're showing that your grasp of reality is about as warped.
As long as your empty little head keeps popping up here to post more worthless drivel, I really ought to keep posting just to keep your so-called brain hurting. On the other hand, I am becoming convinced that you are experiencing phantom pains, so it probably isn't worth my time.
But don't you worry your little head too much; I can almost assure you that we won't be running into each other on any game, and if we do (I am sure you will be able to recognize my descs, eh?), just let me know who you are and I will happily ignore you. I prefer to roleplay with intelligent people anyhow.
As far as I can see, there's only one whiny TS PHB on this board, and she is not verbose because it takes a mind to handle putting that many words together.
Now, please go and stick your head back up your anus. That way anything you say will end up where it belongs.
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666StringSamurai
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Posts: 1
(6/4/02 8:12:54 am)
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Re: Verbal Diarrhoea @ Some WoT Place
Despite the mind-numbingly long dissections of this horrible desc, I'm quite enjoying this thread. It's too funny watching Nymeria huff and whine because obviously NONE OF US APPRECIATE HER DEEP ARTISTIC SOUL.
I do wish she'd huff and whine more succinctly, though. Then again, if she understood the concept of brevity, none of this would have ever happened.
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BeltV2
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Posts: 64
(6/4/02 9:28:12 am)
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Re: Which brain?
'Sucky' isn't a word as far as I know. And one can't be a professional MUSHer, unless they're getting paid to RP.
I win.
-Belt
PS: YHMB, if you want, you can stick your head up my ass. I kinda enjoy that sort of high-risk fun.  (Yes, I'm kidding, no offense meant.)
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You Hurt My Brain
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Posts: 67
(6/4/02 10:17:51 am)
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Re: Which brain?
Maybe because I'm too lazy to scan through the rest of the thread, but I don't seem to recall that Nymthkull has addressed the "gives no clear impression of appearance" point that wasn't just brought up by me.
Or maybe I'm experiencing them thar ghost-pains. Oh, the pain. Yutz.
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Ahpathy
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Posts: 27
(6/4/02 11:53:28 am)
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Re: Verbal Diarrhoea @ Some WoT Place
Quote:
How long will it take before you realise how amply you have shown yourself to be an utter idiot?
Probably 5 times as long as it's taken you to show you're one, you pompous ego-maniac.
Quote:
As long as your empty little head keeps popping up here to post more worthless drivel, I really ought to keep posting just to keep your so-called brain hurting.
So you'll end up being part of the pack of masturbating monkeys because people used the board as it was supposed to be used? To post bad and tasteless descs. Taste vary from person to person, afterall and just because you think that bad spelling, atrocious grammar, and creative punctuation is bad doesn't mean that's the be all end all of a bad description, yours is a perfect example.
So you dotted your 'i's' and crossed your 't's', it's still bad in that cheap romance novel sort of way.
Quote:
In short, what this thread represents for me is that the opinions of a pack of masturbating monkeys are about as important as the @#%$ they throw around.
And I'll say again... you must revere monkey crap like it was gold or something with the way you're constantly defending yourself against those aforementioned opinions.
If you're going to insult people for posting here, fine. If you're going to be a hypocrite about it then that's another reason people here are pointing and laughing at you, aside from your description of course.
Quote:
What the study of this particular desc accomplishes is to make it look more like the board suddenly turned into 'Good Descs' rather than 'Tasteless Descs'. However, some of the posters clearly didn't quite realize that this had happened, which explains the confusion that appears to have plagued them as they fervently tried, tried and tried again to find something negative to say.
Again your own opinon based on your bias. I'd say that the majority rules and if the majority said it was a good, even a decent, description then this thread would have died a while ago even with your attempts to justify it. But it's not. It's awful on various levels and despite the fact that people are telling you about it all, your narcissisim obviously won't allow you to take criticism at all. That's the sign of a bad creator, no matter what you're creating... even if it's monkey-crap that you not only try to fling at the reader but try to force down their throat at gunpoint and with a shovel.
I suggest people just ignore it and eventually even she'll ( or he ) will get tired of smelling and seeing it's own poo and hopefully go back into hiding and lurking on these boards... at least until another of her 'artistic works' are smeared.
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You Hurt My Brain
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Posts: 68
(6/4/02 12:23:10 pm)
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Re: Verbal Diarrhoea @ Some WoT Place
Mmmm... bored at work. Wheee!
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Abbykat
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Posts: 1
(6/4/02 12:24:33 pm)
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 Re: HUGE descs
Quote:
I would not expect, nor want to encounter a desc of this style or size in a book. Of course not. In a book the author can introduce details as time goes by. Except, how on earth do you do that in roleplay, if you want to give roughly the same basic image to everyone you roleplay with?
To accomplish this, you'd have to slip specific little details into your scenes _every time_ someone new is present (and you'd have to remember which details you had fed them previously, in some cases), and I suspect that means you'd only play with new people after a while, as the rest would be tired of you repeating yourself.
I don't usually post on this board, but I had to pipe up in response to this, because it's one of the most ridiculous things I've heard you say.
First of all, MU* roleplay is an excellent medium for introducing details over time. The format invites it. Nor have I ever personally been irritated by someone referring to an aspect of their character's appearance several times over several different scenes, or had anyone complain to me when I have done so.
Secondly, why on earth would you want to give the same image to everyone, every time? MU* characters are not characters in The Simpsons (or at least, most of them aren't). Take five pictures of the same person at five different times, and they will look different in each one. People change clothes, change hairstyles, change moods. Yes, the basic image is the same, but the details ought to change, even in a MU* environment where, for obvious reasons, nobody expects a character to be wearing different clothes every day. And again, MU* format is an excellent medium for this, where the desc provides the basic image and some of the details, and the rest are filled in during RP.
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Nymeria
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Posts: 8
(6/4/02 2:12:32 pm)
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Re: HUGE descs
666StringSamurai,
I think you're missing the point, actually. I am having a great time, despite the company. Then again, some of the monkeys do make amusing noises, which sound rather suspiciously like desperate, pathetic whining to my ears.
Miss No-Brain,
Considering the fact that you can't manage to get your facts straight after your errors have been pointed out to you several times, I don't see why you should worry if one of your little points appears to have been overlooked.
The reality, of course, is that I simply don't have much to say about it. If you (and others) don't think it gives a clear idea about the character's appearance, I can hardly tell you that it should. For me, it is enough to know that the response I've had to the desc outside of this board suggests that it does work for a fair number of people. If you fall outside of that number, it is hardly a surprise to me. However, clearly lack of intelligence does not plague all the posters here, so in those other cases it is simply a matter of preference. A 'flowery' description gives me a more vivid image of a character than a more simplistic approach might do, but tastes obviously wary.
Ahpathy,
Don't you think the lil girl with the phantom pains can fend for herself? Really, you don't need to make yourself look stupid as well so she wont look so bad. I have no reason to be civil towards any of the posters who aren't being civil towards me; I call that flinging the @#%$ back where it came from. Might get my hands a little dirty, but that can be washed off once I decide this isn't amusing any longer. And if you had paid a little attention to the sections of my posts you quoted, it ought to have been apparent to you that I tend to adopt the tone of the post I am responding to. If someone states absolutes, I'll answer with absolutes. If someone is rude, I'll be rude back. Clearly, paying back in kind is too sophisticated a concept for some people.
I am perfectly able to take criticism that is put forward in a reasonable fashion (such as in one of Ice Cream Emperor's posts, or in CyberAnima's post), but taking criticism doesn't mean I necessarily think that person is right. However, if you had paid attention to my response to Ice Cream Emperor's post, you would have noticed that I actually did agree with him on a few points where the second half of the desc clearly needed to be corrected. But if what someone brings up is a matter of taste, I'd like it to stay a matter of taste, and I'd like the statements that make it sound like the one true way kept out of it. The fact that the 'majority' of this board agrees is hardly that impressive as we're talking about a pretty narrow selection of players, many which appear to play primarily the same kind of games, and there's also clearly a pack mentality at work.
On the whole, it sounds like a lot of people would have liked for this to be a private playground for 'approved ones' only, where they can have fun at the expense of the 'outsiders'. But that can't be done on a public board, as the 'outsiders' might just decide to amuse themselves with the 'approved ones' too, and that clearly isn't acceptable to some. Once I decided to respond, the chances of this thread dying down anytime soon were pretty close to zero.
Abbykat,
I am not quite sure I got my point across well enough without giving any examples, so I suppose I'll try again.
I do agree that you can and should introduce aspects of your character over time as you roleplay, but those should not primarily be the aspects you consider immediately visible/perceivable (although you can certainly mention those in roleplay too, to emphasize different details at different times). Gaetan Peverel suggested that the desc is bad because you cannot find a book where a desc like this is given in one go, but that details in a good book are introduced over time. However, whereas a book can sketchily outline a character the first time we meet him or her, perhaps letting a few details be noticed, a character on a MUSH can hardly have her eyes, hair or general size left out from her description and just mentioned in roleplay (unless you really mean to mention them to every character your character meets). A jig-saw build-up of a character to that degree only lends itself to a medium where you can easily go back and check any previously given details. On a MUSH, the handiest way of providing an easy to find reference for a character's appearance is in the desc.
While you certainly can remove anything from a desc that isn't immediately visible, I really do think that makes for a desc that is without personality. Some think that this is the way it should be, and I have no problem with that, but what I like to see in a desc is something that conjures up not just the physical image of the character but also gives an idea of personality. It shouldn't spell it out (He looks dark and brooding, due to having lost his family to orcs at a young age.) but I like to get the basic idea of what the character is like, not just what he or she looks like. If I read a desc similar to one of my own, one that includes a fair amount of character, I don't assume that my own character immediately knows all of this, but as a player I get interested in finding out more about the character because it comes across as dynamic to me.
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chris411
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Posts: 76
(6/4/02 2:46:03 pm)
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 Re: HUGE descs
What is this... whack-a-mole? No, seriously. Whenever I check this board, I see a new post in the same damned thread. And Nymeria's inevitable response.
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BeltV2
Registered User
Posts: 65
(6/4/02 3:07:52 pm)
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It can't be helped
I know Milkman Dan. I'm sorry.
But look at all the ammunition this thing has spawned! 8 paragraphs to 4 different people? Jesus.
Though, I notice I wasn't included. This is because I'm posting innane horseshit on this thread for the sole purpose of trying to derail it.
I wish death upon you, Nymeria. That's right, I said I hope you die, and I meant it. Death by ass cancer, or butt corrosion, or maybe some sort of horrible fecal infection (To keep up with the poo jokes).
Blast me for that, you wanker.
-Belt, attention monger
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Attack Sushi
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Posts: 8
(6/4/02 3:20:59 pm)
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Re: HUGE descs
Nymeria?
I've said it before and I'll say it again. You are the Queen of Descing. The rest of us mere mortals can only try to emulate your unearthly skills.
Well, I know I have been trying to desc like you do. In fact, I've got my attempt right here! How does this sound?
This woman is graceful, lithe, agile, her every movement like that of a dancer. A veritable mane of waterfall-like cascading chestnut hair, a rich mid-brown in colour, frames her beautiful porcelain face, symmetrical in its unearthly perfection. Blue eyes, capped by stunning, prominent eyebrows, twinkle brightly with an azure sparkle, twin cerulean orbs that seem to glow with warmth. High, prominent cheekbones beneath those gorgeous eyes, a straight, perfect nose that gleams with promise, and full, ruby, cupid's bow lips behind which sparkling white teeth gleam, make up the sort of face commonly only seen in wet dreams. A soft, sensual face, a mixture of the most beautiful features imaginable, framed by that mass of brown hair, tumbling acrobatically to surround her beauty.
I haven't gotten onto clothes yet. But perhaps you'd care to offer me some sage advice? I know I could never describe a person as well as you, of course. I can but try.
Hopefully yours,
Sushi.
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Random Personage 17
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Posts: 12
(6/4/02 5:40:47 pm)
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Re: HUGE descs
Nymeria declared:
Quote:
4) is certainly a good goal, but since I do think my descs obtain that goal, and others disagree, it is clearly a highly subjective point.
I pontificate:
Stop right there. If you believe something, and others disagree, the point must be subjective? This argument is fallacious.
Additionally, a question? What purpose do you believe descs hold?
Would you agree that their function is essentially social -- communicating to others the appearance of your character (and possibly social cues, but that's what RP is for, isn't it? Still, we'll leave that question to one side for now) as plainly as possible without spoiling the appearance and/or image you wish to convey -- as opposed to being self-oriented, even masturbatory?
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Hebat
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Posts: 1
(6/4/02 6:16:00 pm)
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Re: HUGE descs
I've got a question for Nymeria and, shockingly, this is an honest to goodness question. I don't even post that often but because the game Nymeria is building has a theme that interest me, I feel compelled to ask. You have definite opinions on what constitutes a good desc, even going so far to say you won't RP with someone if you don't like their description. That's fine, that's your opinion. The question I have though is how is this going to affect the game you're building? Will only people who write descriptions that you like be approved? If I write a short but well-written description will I be told I cannot play or be left out of the cool plots?
I have to admit that the posts I've seen here have seriously made me reconsider playing on the game when it opens, but I would still like to know if there is going to be a 'description requirement' for players.
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JBChesbro
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Posts: 8
(6/4/02 9:44:25 pm)
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Re: Which brain?
Quote:
'Sucky' isn't a word as far as I know. And one can't be a professional MUSHer, unless they're getting paid to RP.
I win.
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Kage Ryu24601
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Posts: 2
(6/5/02 3:45:05 am)
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Re: Verbal Diarrhoea @ Some WoT Place
Hmm. Reading the replies, I dunno if I want to comment. But I will.
The major problem I have with this desc is the following: Firstly, the cliches are somewhat painful. Another gorgeous, white-haired (from what I gather?) elvin woman. Yawn.
Secondly, and this is tenuous I admit, if everyone descs like this in the same, flowery way describing the same, flowery female, then the major problem most MUSHes have - realism - is gonna pop up. Now, I know WoT isn't THE most realistic environment to play in, but even so, if everyone is trying to out-beautify each other in descs (and, to be honest, this is what it seems like Nymeria is trying to do), then you're going to blow up the world with all this beauty and it just gets boring.
I had one of my descs on the Darned Good Descs aspect of IGU (Elisabeth), and as far as I could tell, people liked her because she was a prettyish girl, yes, but she was also regular looking to an extent (especially for a Toreador). The language was reasonably straightforward. Yes, this is a matter of preference, but trying to out-desc-and-beautify somebody?
Tackytackytacky. Overdone, too. So, all in all, Nymeria might have a decent grasp of language, but there's altogether too much of it, and really - why bother, everyone's already seen the gorgeous elvin babe before a billion times.
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You Hurt My Brain
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Posts: 69
(6/5/02 12:25:46 pm)
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Just because I could.
Barbie Boobs.
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